Cam question

[Orange302]

Edited by Fox Master - moved from another thread.


I dont want to jack this thread, but I have the same need, exept i have the exhaust, i have the AFR165 heads, i have the Edelbrock RPM 2 intake. I also have nitrous on the way, planning on a 75 shot.

This car will be dynoed tuned with a chip in it, and i will be converting over to the fox's computer.

So, i need a cam to go along with this set up. 95% of my driving will be on the street. I dont street race all that often. but i do like to **** around.

Suggest some good cams please. If you suggest something I will have questions about why and such, so be prepared to back up what you suggest (prevent replies from above)

[Darren5.0L]

For cams I'm not all that good at matching one to a combo, but if you like you can go to most popular cam manufactuers websites and request for their recommendations based on an online form you fill out. This helps remove much of the guess work involved and you can get a few opinions and compare specs and them decide from there. the best part is it's free.

Not to totally throw you off course here, but I have a few questions about your EEC choice. You said you were planning on swapping to a Fox (A9L or similar I assume) computer, as well as getting a "chip" burned. I was wondering why you choosing to do both? Have you totally researched the benefits/tradeoffs involved with switching to an older EEC, because if you are getting a chip done then your necessity for changing to a Fox computer becomes redundant.

Most of the problems (if you call them that) a 94/95 Mustang Computer has can easily be removed with the work of a custom tune. The main problems will potentially be from the change in vacuum from the change in Lobe separation angle and a good tuner can deal with that, it's what you pay them for. The other is a value called "spark min tip-in retard" don't get too concerned about the name, it's basically something Ford designed into the programing to save the rather weak WC T5's from drivers powershifting. Every time you push the clutch pedal in the computer retards the timing to reduce power, then it gradually adds it back in once the clutch pedal is back out. This results in "softer" shifts and is easy to remove/modify with the proper tuning equipment. This computer is also the first one in the Mustang to base calculations from engine load and this helps with more precise fuel delivery.

If you want to know more about EEC I have a huge amount of resources I can send along to help learn.

[Orange302]

I agree with you that it would be redundant to get a computer then get it tuned. What I forgot to mention and might clear up why i am doing both is:

1. The tuner is in Calgary and I will be driving the car un-tuned there
2. MAF meter I am getting will be for a fox computer (A9L)
3. Funds saftey net

Number 3 ensures that if i dont have enough money for the tune that I will beable to drive my car a bit before i do get it tuned.

Also, i have heard nothing but bad things with the SN95 and new cams. I would rather side step the problem by getting the A9L.

Lastly, what i pay for the computer will be made up in the tuning process. Like you said, I can pay the tuner to take those problems out. Well the the difference shouldn't be all that noticable, between the computer, and the extra costs of having it tuned. The ride there will be a lot nicer though.

[The Fox Master]

Sorry for moving your post there Danny boy, I figured you would get more replies in a new thread.

To reply to your question there are a ton of off the shelf grinds that will work and work well with your combo. As Darren said, you can contact the manufacturers and get a professional recomendation from any of the big companies such as Comp, Crane, Trick Flow and even Ford Racing. However the "best choice" since you asked is a custom grind. A cam's events should be matched to the motor and the entire combination of parts. Only a custom grind caluculated by a pro can truely optimise performance. Now this may not be practical if you are planning a differant bottom end and signifigantly differant modifications from what you have now. If this is the case you will likley want a differant custom when you change combos and this can of course get pricey at 300-400$ a pop. So an off the shelf cam may be the best and most dollar practical option for you.

I'm sure you can find numerous example of peoples with the same heads and intake as yours and see what cams they are running. This would be my recomendation before buying an off the shelf cam. Simply recomending a mild street cam like a B/E/F303 cam from ford racing or a crane 2030/2031 or a Comp 282HR or a TFS #1 or 2 which are incredably common choices and would all work well but they are not truely optimal. So do as much research as you can before you buy if you really want value in your purchase. If you are just after the cam "sound" lope and idle any of the above would do though (depending how radical you are after).

As for your tune Darren does make the valid point that the T4MO computer you have can be tuned properly regardless. But I'm inclined to say the A9L is a far superior ECU. As Darren said, do your research well as to the disadvantages of going with an A9L before you commit to it as there will be a few things you need to address with this swap such as control of your electric fan. One option would be to do as I did and have a chip with a rough tune sent to you to get you going and get it properly dialed in on the dyno later.

Now to give you my advice, which I cant help but doing, it;s just the kinda guy I am... I personally would run the stock cam and computer and a MAF matched to your injectors. And get it tuned when ya can. Nice and simple and would work very well without any idle and drivability issues. I went 12.3s@115 with a stock cam (and 1.7s) and lots of people have gone faster than that. The stock cam is darn impressive IMO. But that's just my 2 cents.

[Darren5.0L]

Originally Posted by The Fox Master

I personally would run the stock cam and computer and a MAF matched to your injectors. And get it tuned when ya can. Nice and simple and would work very well without any idle and drivability issues. I went 12.3s@115 with a stock cam (and 1.7s) and lots of people have gone faster than that. The stock cam is darn impressive IMO. But that's just my 2 cents.

That was going to be my next suggestion as well, the stocker is a very veristile grind.

[Orange302]

I agree, that there is nothing wrong with the stock cam. But, seeing as i have to go in there and put new pushrods in why not do a cam at the same time. (long story on the pushrods rather not share)

As for the computer, it is really going to depend on the MAFs i can find avaible. They are lots avalible for the A9L computer, as for the SN95, little harder to find.

DYNO TUNING, will be happening when the car is on the road in the spring. I would rather wait a couple of weeks to get the funds to make it run right, then to have it run ****ty.

I found this list of the popluar off the shelf cams. My problem is i am not sure what all of the numbers mean and how they apply to my particular car.


1.Stock 5.0 E8ZE-6250-CA, Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.444,
Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.444, Duration Intake (at .050)-204, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-204, Lobe Center-116, Emissions Legal-Yes

2.X303, Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.542, Valve Lift Exhaust
w/1.6 rockers-.542, Duration Intake (at .050)-224, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-224, Lobe Center-112, Emissions Legal-No

3.Lunati 50017, Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.500, Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.510, Duration Intake (at .050)-218, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-226, Lobe Center-112, Emissions Legal-No

4.B303, Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.480, Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.480, Duration Intake (at .050)-224, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-224, Lobe Center-112, Emission Legal-No

5.Crane 2040, Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.498, Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.498, Duration Intake (at .050)-220, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-220, Lobe Center-110, Emissions Legal-Yes

6.Crane 2030, Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.533, Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.544, Duration Intake (at .050)-216, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-220, Lobe Center-112, Emission Legal-Yes

7.Crower 15511, Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.468, Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.486, Duration Intake (at .050)-218, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-224, Lobe Center-114, Emission Legal-Yes

8.Crane 2031, Valve Lift Intake w/1.7 rockers-.513, Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.7 rockers-.529, Duration Intake (at .050)-214, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-220, Lobe Center-112, Emissions Legal-Yes

9.Steeda #19, Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.480, Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.480, Duration Intake (at .050)-220, Duration Exhaust (at .050) w/1.6 rockers-226, Lobe Center-115, Emission Legal-Yes

10.E303, Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.498, Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.498, Duration Intake (at .050)-220, Duration Exhaust (at .050) w/1.6 rockers-220, Lobe Center-110, Emissions Legal-Yes

[bc82gt]

Interesting thread. Just wondering if you change the computer from a 94+ to an earlier fox(EEC-IV) would you gain the ability to use the OBD-II port connection for newer style electronic downloaders/tuners.

[Darren5.0L]

Nope, because the 94-95 computers are still OBD I (EEC-IV) and are not compatible with that type of tuner. The 96+ ones are EEC V and are a different ballgame.

[Darren5.0L]

Originally Posted by Orange302

I found this list of the popluar off the shelf cams. My problem is i am not sure what all of the numbers mean and how they apply to my particular car.

I've seen that list on stangnet before, it's not a bad bit of info. However, one that stands out that I recommend against is this one:

4.B303, Valve Lift Intake w/1.6 rockers-.480, Valve Lift Exhaust w/1.6 rockers-.480, Duration Intake (at .050)-224, Duration Exhaust (at .050)-224, Lobe Center-112, Emission Legal-No

Many people have wished they never installed this cam and engine analizer plots this cam as performing in the following manner:

on a stock 5.0L:

stock cam- 230 HP avg 157 - 302 TQ avg 252
b303- 228 HP avg 156 - 289 TQ avg 221

add a basic set of Trickflow heads and this happens:

stock cam- 256 HP avg 169 - 316 TQ avg 263
b303 - 251 HP avg 156 - 302 TQ avg 229

Here is an idea of how the power curves change:

STOCK CAm

B303 CAM



I had even called the guys at Ford racing about it and they said you might gain a bit in the top end but the car will act slower, due to a large loss in midrange and average power. They then recommended against me using it.

[stangmank]

The RPMII is too much intake for your application. get a cobra or Performer or TFS street(choices in that order) The cobra for our cars is nice. The TFS and the elbow can cause TB clearance problems with certain valve covers. i had to cut the EGR mount ear off mine, as many had to as well.

BTW the rpm 2 was Edelbrocks higher RPM alternative to fill the gap between the performer rpm and vic5.0. It pulls better after 5000 over an rpm intake which is also too much for your needs

for a cam you can use the stock and get some 1.7 RR. Out of the list the steeda#19 is suppossed to be nice w/sn95 and use 1.7rr if you have clearance. These ECU need a cam w/LCA of 114-116. Comp cams has a few just for the sn95's.

A cam change is a plus to get the most out of the heads and the intake. I'd say to get a 65-70mm tb. if you get a BBK you need to tack the shaft to the arm as you'll have slop and offset TPS voltages at idle.

The TPS voltages are a must to get in line for decent idle on these cars look for 0.95-0.98volts

Also get an AFPR and FP gauge. You'll need to most likely play with the fuel pressure before a tune. You'll need to decrease pressure with bigger injectors or increase it with stock

The more you mod these cars the worse it can get, so be prepared.

Keep your stock TB, injetors and MAF handy. If things get to wild you can start adding them back and have the shop reinstall for the tune.

Also if your idle is eratic and you have enough gear in it you can lock the timing at 24-26 degrees and leave the spout out til you get to the tuner. this takes away the EEC's timing control and can improve the idle.

[Orange302]

I dissagree that the intake is too big for my car and application. I am working towards a goal and everything i get for my car is for that purpose. You might also think that 30lb injectors are big, but i am still working towards a goal. If i had a bunch of money I would set up the end goal right now, but i cant do that.

I also already have a 65mm TB. Thanks for the heads up on how to install, but i got that covered on the TB. I also have 1.6rr.

Why do i need a cam between 114-116. It should work with a 112 cam.

PS. Dont tell me what my cars needs are when you dont know my set up or what i am working too. Dont tell me that it is to big for my "needs". I might sound like a ****, but that pisses me off that u assume i dont know what i am doing.

[The Fox Master]

Yeah I disagree that the RPM II is too big for those AFR heads also. I do agree that a cobra would be a nice match to those heads but the RPM II is an excellent performer (no pun intended) and is far from too large. Orange302's combo is more than capable of pulling to 6500 with an optimized cam. As he said, it gives room to grow.

Another point i'd like to make is that most compitant chip/dyno tuners would not recomend and adjustable regulator on a mass air car. If you have an understand EEC IV's adaptive nature, changes made to fuel pressure (and thus air fuel ratio) will be noticed and trimmed by the ECU in open loop, negating its purpose. It also ads an un-needed variable for the tuner who sets up the chip/programmer tune. Most tuners set base pressure to stock 40 psi before beginning the tuning process. With the tunability of our ECU's there is absolutly no reason to mess with fuel pressure.

[Orange302]

Who knows anything about the steeda 19, it looks like it is in the lead for the cam decision. 115 lob duration, and revs to 6000. Is there anything that will rev to 6500.

Would this cam be considered mild? Any other options?

[Orange302]

Just want to thank everyone who helped in this decision, i am 99% sure i will be getting the Steeda 19. I have read alot about it, and it seems the the best choice for a DD car.

Thanks again

[drhoward]

Sorry to bring back this old thread, but where are you getting your car tuned in Calgary? I hear the mustang shop does it is there anywhere else? are they good?

I am installing a set of ported GT-40p's with new springs, a ported cobra intake, larger maf with 24# injectors and a TFS1 cam to go along with all my other modifcations, and I am also waiting around for spring to do everything as well

Cheers
Kev